ABOUT UMBERTA TELFENER

Originally professionally educated in philosophy, Umberta Telfener subsequently completed her PhD in Health Psychology at the Sapienza University in Rome. Italian-born and a highly respected family and systemic therapist, she has been held in deep regard beyond the Italian and European professions for over four decades. As her contribution to our field has expanded, she has become increasingly a powerful ‘force to be reckoned with,’ known for her passion and commitment to fostering relationships and developing partnerships.

Her family therapy training began at the Child Guidance Clinic in Philadelphia where she became thoroughly immersed in all things ‘systems’ (Dreyer, 1976). She later completed her family therapy training in Italy, at the Milan School of Family Therapy (Barbetta & Telfener, 2019, 2021; Telfener, 2024; Telfener & Ticozzelli, 2023), directly mentored and supervised by Gianfranco Cecchin and Luigi Boscolo, and where she later became a member of the teaching faculty. To this day, she continues her involvement with the Milan school, and is responsible for external relations.

Umberta has held various roles as part of her professional career. She worked in a public health centre for 10 years and has been in private practice since 1980. She has held the position of adjunct professor in the Post Graduate School of Health Psychology at the University of La Sapienza in Rome for 20 years. She continues to supervise the work of professionals and groups. She offers seminars, training courses, and supervision both in public and private institutes.

Umberta is a published author and has written substantially, for a wide readership. She has published single and co-authored papers as well as penned books on the theory and practice of psychotherapy and systems thinking. She has also written books for the general public readership on love, relationships, and relational themes through the postmodern and hypermodern lens (Telfener, 2007, 2011b, 2013, 2015b, 2018, 2020, 2021). Some of her latest professional works include Strategizing: the state of the art in the Milan School (Telfener & Ticozzelli, 2023), Milan School of Family Therapy (Telfener, 2024), The spiritual dimension in psychotherapy (Telfener, 2015a), Community work and psychotherapy as two sides of the same cooperative practice in systemic therapy as transformative practice, a book edited by Imelda McCarthy and Gail Simon (Telfener, 2016).

Umberta created a systemic dictionary constructed as a dialogical hypertext which she edited under the supervision of another of her mentors, Heinz von Foerster (Telfener, 2003). She also authored Learning contexts (Telfener, 2011a) and Reflexivity in psychotherapy (Bianciardi & Telfener, 2014), and edited books both for the general public and for the family therapy profession. She has published articles in Italian and other language journals.

Dr Telfener has a long-standing connection to the European Family Therapy Association (EFTA). She joined as an individual member and from 2010 represented the Milan Institute of Family Therapy. She became a member of the Training Institutes' Chamber (TIC) Board in 2016, and in November 2020, she became Chair of the TIC. Umberta was elected President at the EFTA Conference AGM in September 2022.

Umberta is an astute, hands-on leader, and as part of her role as president of the EFTA, she has stated goals to consolidate positive change, build research networks aimed at increasing publication, create a space for younger generations, and connect the EFTA with the international community and other worldwide systemic institutions. She is passionate about monitoring threats to human well-being, ecosystem survival, and mental health posed by climate change and biodiversity loss (Telfener, 2023b).

INVOLVEMENT IN THE FIELD: THE EUROPEAN FAMILY THERAPY ASSOCIATION

The EFTA was established in 1990 as an independent, non-profit-making association. The EFTA has members from most European nations, plus ‘foreign members.’

The Association has a tripartite structure consisting of three chambers:

1. The Chamber of Individual Members (CIM) which gathers a wide range of professionals (e.g., social workers, psychiatrists, psychologists, other health professionals) who have finished a minimum of 4 years of training in family therapy/systemic approach and are working with families, couples, and larger systems.
2. The Chamber of National Family Therapy Organizations (NFTO) which unite national associations/federations.
3. The Training Institutes Chamber (TIC) which connects training institutes and facilitates networking based on the guidelines of minimum training standards.

EFTA Contributes to the field by:

1. Linking and coordinating European national organisations, institutes, and individuals in the field of family therapy and systemic practice.
2. Promoting the highest level of competence and quality in practice, research, supervision, and teaching in family therapy and allied fields.
3. Enhancing the training of systemic professionals and family therapists at regional, national, and European levels.
4. Implementing committee work related to the aims of EFTA such as research, training standards, ethics, and external relations.
5. Spreading information about family therapy and systemic approaches throughout Europe to individuals, institutions, and organisations concerned with the health and development of families and human systems.
6. Promoting research, conferences, publications, audiovisual tools, and other scientific material in the field (Borcsa, 2017).

BACKGROUND TO THE INTERVIEW

Umberta Telfener is someone for whom I have deep respect and admiration due to her broad and multi-faceted contribution across varied areas of our field. Her involvement in association boards as well as her commitment to the advancement of our profession, maintaining a high standard and ultimately in the preservation of our field is admirable. This is a rare quality, something from which many shy away due to the incredible commitment, the amount of work, usually behind the scenes, without direct benefit to themselves.

I have been called a ‘cultural anthropologist’; borders do not stop me from making contact and nurturing relationships. This extends to the interviews and conversations I hold around the globe with fellow systemic practitioners (Amorin-Woods et al., 2020, 2021, 2022; Amorin-Woods & Imber-Black, 2024; Amorin-Woods & Mosconi, 2023; Amorin-Woods & Saccu, 2023; Amorin-Woods & Selvini, 2023). To me, Umberta is also a cultural anthropologist, but on a much larger scale. She is interested, curious, eager, and passionate about creating links, making connections, establishing relationships, and developing partnerships. Her restless energy and the creative lengths to which she will go to develop networks is widely recognised as the Umberta style which is fast becoming legendary. As a leader, she is highly active, genuinely involved, displays boundless energy, and is entirely committed to a cause. She is fierce in challenging the status quo and is highly articulate. She is comfortable in expressing her opinion and exploring new views. She does not give up on an idea until she brings it to fruition. Her ultimate goal is to bring resolution and progress in our field. This illustrates her authenticity, a much-needed quality in our field. Although she has only been a year in the top office at the EFTA, she has already conceived and developed many projects – small, medium, and large. Umberta has established and developed networks with practitioners, researchers, and widely with national and international systemic thinkers in our field (Telfener, 2023b).

True to her classical philosophical training origins, her pursuit is invariably the pursuit of wisdom, knowledge, and truth since philosophy is a systematic study of general and fundamental questions concerning topics like existence, reason, knowledge, value, mind, and language (Merriam-Webster, 2024). Umberta actively seeks to understand fundamental truths about ‘self’ and ‘others’ within our world, exploring meaning and purpose and bringing light to unique ways of thinking about systems thinking and psychotherapy.

As a Peruana, I think I could aptly describe Umberta as a chasqui. This is a Quechua (native Peruvian) word which means a messenger of the (Inca) empire. Agile, highly trained, and physically fit, they were in charge of delivering messages from one location to another in the form of ‘quipus’ or oral information (Guaman Poma de Ayala, 1615/2009). Just like a chasqui, Umberta is an agile networker who exchanges communication and carries and delivers important information and messages to support our international community of systemic practitioners.

This paper is based on an in-person conversation I held with Umberta Telfener in July 2023, which took place at Umberta's country home, located in Capalbio, Tuscany, Italy. In this conversation, Umberta and I delve into her multi-faceted professional experience and contribution to our field. She discusses her initial training at the Philadelphia Child Guidance Clinic and her training and work experience at the Milan School of Family Therapy, and her varied involvement at the EFTA, including her leadership and current role as EFTA president. Umberta shares her insights about some of the early pioneers who deeply influenced her thinking and her work with systems.

THE CONVERSATION

Deisy Amorin-Woods

Ciao Umberta! Thank you for having me. It is amazing to be with you here in your spectacular space in Capalbio, located in the beautiful Toscana. I really appreciate you welcoming me into your unique country home. It is such a tranquil and calm atmosphere, just beautiful! I am sure you are easily grounded in this space. In fact, I believe that you designed this beautiful home, and while you are not an architect, you did fantasise about being one, so designing your home was a way to turn a fantasy into a reality.

Umberta Telfener

Ciao Deisy, welcome. Yes, I did, and it was. This space is very important to me.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

I am delighted to have this opportunity, given the connection I have with you. You have been a long-standing prominent practitioner and leader in the family therapy field, particularly throughout Europe. As such you have naturally been influenced, have influenced, and continue influencing a lot of people in our field. In terms of your family therapy training, I believe this originated in the United States at the Philadelphia Child Guidance Institute. You then brought those ideas into Italy, and you merged them with the Italian flavour.

Umberta Telfener

Absolutely, that is where my journey started, I took myself to England first, then to the United States to The Child Guidance Institute where I was influenced by Jay Haley, Sal Minuchin, and Harry Aponte. On my return to Italy, I entered the Milan School of Family Therapy under the direct guidance of Gianfranco Cecchin and Luigi Boscolo who became my mentors.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

I really appreciate this because I believe that when we take ourselves into other contexts and cultures, and fully immerse in them, it exposes us to new and novel approaches and ways of thinking which enhances our critical and reflective skills. This helps us consider different roots and ways of going about formulating our thinking. In terms of your career involvement, you have been a prominent identity in the European context, particularly with your specific involvement with EFTA. You have written extensively and held academic roles as professor at the University of Sapienza.

Umberta Telfener

Being the least powerful at the university because I was adjunct all my life, I never had tenure.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

Well, it has value as this gives you the opportunity to delve into other areas of the profession as well. In addition, you have written extensively on the theory and practice of family therapy and have also written a number of books about relationships and ‘love.’

Umberta Telfener

Those books, seven actually, are written for the general public. I have a little tiny story on this. My first one was titled I married a narcissist (Telfener, 2007). Translated it is called a ‘narcizo’ (incidentally, it holds a double meaning as it also means the narcizo flower). I am feeling a little bit guilty about it because it opened up a period in which women started being very critical of men and accusing them directly. So, I feel guilty because I gave the general public in Italy the term narcissism which, these days, is really abused, I would say.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

The book came out in 2006, so it has been almost 20 years, and a lot has happened since. There has been a lot of ideas emerging about your work impacted within contexts then and today in our world. So, in addition to being an accomplished author for ‘the masses,’ you have been a great collaborator, and partnering ‘guru.’ That also led you to your lengthy involvement in EFTA. You have been quite prominent there. And now since September 2022 you were elected as EFTA president.

Umberta Telfener

Well yes, my involvement with EFTA has been a long one. I entered EFTA at the beginning of its development, as the least powerful person. I was one of the students of Boscolo and Cecchin and I was there in the initial stages of EFTA when it started. I then left to have my kids and engage in other pursuits. On my return, I entered through EFTA-TIC. Mony Elkaim was there then as chair of EFTA-TIC at that point.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

What year would that have been?

Umberta Telfener

Oh, it must have been 12, 13 years ago. I was there when EFTA-TIC started, and then when sadly Mony died (in 2020), I became chair. I learned so much from my participation there. There were workshops, meetings, and the Congress, held once a year. There was teaching involved, teaching other professionals in a way that is fun, instructive, and pleasant. So, I learned a lot. I think I fell in love with EFTA and with the project of having a European network. That is something I am extremely committed to.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

That is great! Interestingly as part of what I do for the journal, this project of mine, holding conversations, is about making connections and establishing links. That is something you know a lot about, linking the past with the present and looking into the future direction in our field. There is a mutual and ongoing influence that exists. It starts with who we have been influenced by in our profession, those whom we are influencing, and also those whom we are yet to influence. It is an ongoing process, so those links are so important.

I am interested to hear about what are the things that you're currently finding as President of EFTA? Perhaps we can start with the people who have mentored you. How has that nurtured you and assisted in formulating your thinking and how has that become part of today, for the clinician, the teacher, and the leader that you are?

Umberta Telfener

You know, it is when I started to enter the field of family therapy and systems thinking. It was around 1975. I had graduated in philosophy, and I wanted to practice and see how the world was. I went to England first, but I could not easily enter the systemic world over there. So, I went to the United States and met Sal Minuchin, Harry Aponte, and Jay Haley, all of them. And it was easy, the field was very clear. The work, the systems, and the family therapy practitioners that were there. Some had psychoanalytic backgrounds, some were behavioural or cognitive in their orientation … and then there were the systemic ones, which were the most interesting by far.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

In your opinion, what made them the most interesting?

Umberta Telfener

They dealt with complexity, and it was fantastic. I fell in love. I fell in love many times during this period. It was easy then, we had grandfathers. The situation we have now is not clear enough, we do not have many fathers. There are a lot of institutes that have practiced with many different theories, and they are more confused. They decide, for example, that they are systemic, but do not know the background or do not have much idea what it actually means, or what it looks like. So, while back then, it was very clear who was ‘in’ and who was ‘out,’ we now have a lot of people who declare themselves systemic, but they are not. They want to belong to us, and it is fantastic that they do, however, there is a question of criteria. For example, should we adapt to the criteria of the EAP (European Association of Psychotherapy), who have very high standards, or should we have standards of our own? So, the situation in the field of mental health and psychotherapy is, at this point, very mixed up.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

I guess with this confusion, how can we support people who are confused when we ourselves are confused?

Umberta Telfener

Exactly. How can we? It is a big, a huge isomorphism. Yes, we are confused because there are a lot of institutes. In Germany, for example, there are a lot of people, there is an incredible number of practitioners and very few are EFTA members.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

Why is that do you think?

Umberta Telfener

That is a good question, why? Probably because we never had a representative, a German representative who would be very keen on feeding to the population the information that EFTA was there. EFTA was at the beginning Francophone, then there was a Greek president, and a lot of Greek people came in. Then there were some Italian presidents like Luigi Onnis, and Rodolfo de Bernard before me, whom I respected profoundly, and so some Italian people came in. Then there is another thing that changed the situation, and it is the fact that EFTA has been for ages the agency that would give accreditation to institutes. Now institutes have their country accrediting and Germany was one of the first to be accredited, so they did not need us as much.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

I see, so the governance, in terms of accreditation criteria has changed.

Umberta Telfener

The governance is totally changed so perhaps that is where the confusion lies, partly.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

Do you think, perhaps it may require a recalibration in mandate requirements?

Umberta Telfener

Yes, we are changing our mandate. It is very clear that we are changing our mandate from a mandate that has to do with legalising institutions to one that we are taking very seriously and has to do with ‘cultural’ aspects. I have started many initiatives because I think that now EFTA has a very important mandate, a ‘cultural’ one, which invites action.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

I really appreciate your dedication and undertaking in this space because an important aspect of our role as family therapists is its multi-faceted duty, particularly when holding a leadership role. I believe part of this duty is to set the scene to not only be acknowledged but also to be very responsive to the needs of our diverse community because otherwise we are holding onto a very limited framework, which fails in its delivery. As I often say we must be conscious and steer away from the provision of monocultural means to multicultural ends (Amorin-Woods, 2020).

Umberta Telfener

Absolutely, it is not realistic.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

Indeed, not realistic. I am sure, however, that through your continuous efforts, tenacity, and dedication, given they are some of your valuable traits, I believe that as EFTA president you will be committed to addressing this and other gaps.

Umberta Telfener

Well, the first thing I put forward and we were committed to do as an association was to develop a Social Justice and Systemic Thinking Task Force. This is relevant in our global community with so many things happening in the world, such as the unjustifiable wars we are surrounded by. We have had to deal with people who went to war, or migrants facing poverty and homelessness. I think that our work is strictly always political work! As part of our Social Justice and Systemic Thinking Task Force, we met for the first time at the NFTO in Sofia in June 2023, and then we held regular meetings and discussion groups. In fact, some of our discussions on this area can be accessed through the EFTA website (O'Brien et al., 2023).

Deisy Amorin-Woods

Indeed, whether at the micro, mezzo, or macro, within all levels there will be political permutations (Amorin-Woods, 2021). I recently held a conversation with one of the most respected members of our profession, Evan Imber-Black, and we were talking about that very thing (Amorin-Woods & Imber-Black, 2024). What came out from that conversation, as with you now, is that we cannot deny the presence of politics in our field, because it is present in all systems including within families or institutions; it is impossible to escape it.

Umberta Telfener

Absolutely, we need to be political, and we must be responsive. After being aware of what has happened, we must act and respond, we need to ask ourselves, what do we do with it from there on? It is important not to fall into a social collusion that addresses emerging problems rather than analysing the cultural and contextual background, which maintains the problem precisely through the tools that attempt to alleviate it. Mental health workers cannot risk reproducing the outcomes of war and I personally remember Article 11 of the (Italian) Constitution: “Italy repudiates war as a tool for conflict resolution.” This article encompasses key principles related to Italy's role in the international community and its commitment to promoting peace and justice among nations (Telfener, 2023a).

Deisy Amorin-Woods

That is where I would like to go now in terms of your work and your interest, in terms of who you are, and the qualities that you bring in uniting collaboratively with others in making a difference in the various communities you are representing. So, your role as president of EFTA is being the link to other family therapy associations and to individual practitioners who are entering the profession already with doubt; because as you described earlier, which makes so much sense, is: how do you provide guidance when there is confusion?

Umberta Telfener

Absolutely.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

Confusion breeds confusion just like anxiety breeds anxiety. I guess in considering attachment for instance. If the mother is anxious, the child is going to be anxious in turn. So, it is something that we need to have as part of the process, some level of security. Conversations need to be addressed because as you earlier described there will be different approaches depending on where you go, because interpretation and application are context and culture dependent too.

Umberta Telfener

We think that therapy is an easy linear process, but therapy is a chance, it is a dance. You may go to a therapist, who is supposed to be very good, but who does not help you. Alternatively, you can go to someone who is just starting and helps you very much. So, in terms of this big challenge that you were talking about, I think what we need as therapists, but also as systemic thinkers (because it is important that we are not only addressing ourselves as therapists), is to realise there is much more to do than only therapy and much more to do than only seeing families. Families are in a crisis. There are 200 models of families. Here in Italy, I see many formations representing this diversity all the time. What we need to do is to be open and to be prepared to constantly change our therapy, adapting to their ways of thinking, rather than ask our clients to adapt to our way of thinking. So, I am always looking for new ways and new ideas. I read the paper every day and I ask my students to read the paper every day because I think you cannot just ignore what is happening in the world if you are a psychotherapist or if you are a practitioner working in an institution.

In a speech to my peers I made in Sofia earlier this year, I raised some points that “we are more than family therapists, we are systemic thinkers. Politics and ministries haven't tightened us in this position. We must broaden these systemic ideas. The difference between us and the other models is our mandate on complexity. Holding complexity is difficult but very rewarding. We don't only have to talk about therapy. Therapy is a second-order intervention. We need to talk about all the possible community interventions. It's the institutions that become the change agent. In fact, we started this way. We were more than therapists. We did so many things” (Telfener, 2023a).

Deisy Amorin-Woods

Indeed, I strongly concur with you. In my own work experience sitting across levels; as a policy-maker, in developing and coordinating community responsive programs; and in my direct work with families, couples, and individuals. I believe that you are highlighting the importance of the three levels – micro, mezzo and macro – of our role, as systems thinkers, community responders, and policy influencers (Amorin-Woods, 2021). I agree you need to be informed; you need to be “in the know” as to what is relevant at the time because things change. As you stated, the mandate of the governance of EFTA has changed and every new person there will be influencing another, just as you were influenced by Hayley, Minuchin, and Aponte. In doing so, these influences don't get forgotten, but you add to the layers of it.

Umberta Telfener

Many, many layers … There is a very beautiful book by Deleuze and Guattari that is called Mille le pian/plateaux A thousand layers/plateaux (Deleuze & Guattari, 1980/1987). Life is a thousand layers, and we address contemporaneously all these layers. I think it is very interesting because you talked about my beginnings. I would say Sal Minuchin, certainly Harry Aponte who invited me to The Child Guidance Institute, certainly Jay Hayley, I met with Jay and Gregory Bateson, and Lynn Hoffman, in particular, all had a huge impact on me.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

How so?

Umberta Telfener

Lynn became a very good friend of mine. We would talk for hours about systemic ideas. She was the holder of such a wide set of opinions.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

What specifically about Lynn made a powerful impact on you?

Umberta Telfener

Well, we were in a period in which it was the passage from first-order to second-order cybernetics and we were not understanding very clearly the concept of second-order cybernetics. That was a term invented by Hans von Foerster and Margaret Mead during the Mercy conferences (von Foerster, 2003). So, we were struggling with this idea because, you know, to be objective and to say this is happening and to be participative, putting yourself with your emotions, your lens, your prejudice in it was a great passage, and I think we held hands during this passage. There was a ritual to that transition. It was incredible we were struggling with this thought, and it was not easy, but we continued the discussions. I also had extensive discussions with Boscolo and Cecchin given they were my mentors.

I always thought that I would like to be a journalist for family therapy in some way. Well, I am doing it in a way, somehow. Well, what I envisaged was that I would always be going around visiting these leaders, Whittaker in Wisconsin, Framo in San Diego … going around and picking up ideas and describing them … then, this is the third time I say this expression, “I fell in love” with the “Milan model.” It was 1981 approximately when I was asked to become one of Boscolo and Cecchin's teachers. I did the training as a teacher with them. I did not do the training which I did in Philadelphia again, but I did the training as a teacher in Milano, and it was 1980, so, it has been 40 years that I have been faithful (Barbetta & Telfener, 2021).

Deisy Amorin-Woods

This was exclusively with Cecchin and Boscolo?

Umberta Telfener

Yes, the “Milan four” group had already split. I was there for 3 days, Lynn Hoffman was also there, so I was there helping behind the mirror with the four of them. Boscolo and Cecchin had invited me to be a teacher in training and I would take a plane from Roma at 5.30 or 6.00 in the morning to arrive at 7.30 am in Milan, sometimes I would land in Genoa because there was fog, and I would arrive there and then spend the day with the team.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

So, some of the things I have captured so far about you are your attraction to the “journalism lens,” to enter into other contexts, and hold conversations with mentors in different settings in order to strengthen your thinking, to feed your practice. This then allows you to again immerse into your clients' world with attention and intention bringing openness in your approach, being prepared to make adjustments, to adapt to what is presented in front of you by clients. So, your “anthropological” approach, your immersion in the context within cultures, within communities and different models, affords you many things. It informs you to treat these diverse forms with safety and respect and also facilitates you in coming up with your ideas, to create that unified whole, so to speak. Your exposure and open approach would certainly be an enormous asset to a practitioner leading an association because as president you are going to find many differences.

Umberta Telfener

I LOVE differences. We must welcome these differences rather than trying to decrease them, I believe the more differences there are, the better and the best equipped we are to address challenges in our communities.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

Indeed, it is not about diluting the varied and different forms because this in fact is what helps us, enriching and strengthening our approaches with clients, institutions, and communities.

Umberta Telfener

Absolutely, and the differences I am finding are from Western and Eastern institutes that are “very different.” In some ways, the Eastern institutes are much more passionate institutes. In some ways, they are less economically bounded. They are like pioneers starting something in their countries. It is lovely to see these fresh ideas emerging.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

And there is a sense of naivety alongside the passion …

Umberta Telfener

Yes, very much so, a very nice sense of being “fighters” for a new and more humanistic way of thinking. The consequence of what we lost in the West is that now we have to adapt to the laws of the big institutions. We lost some “territory.” We lost some public spaces. We lost some of the valued work we did with psychotic people in favour of medication. Some would say that “medication” is like “the new asylum” for people. It is the new “golden cage of psychiatry.”

Deisy Amorin-Woods

I thoroughly agree with that. We end up returning to “disempowerment” after all the extensive, rich work we did to bring “empowerment.” We need to ensure we take back the reins.

Umberta Telfener

Yes, it is a disempowered and diluted systemic thinking. We have had to accept too many compromises. So, it is up to us all, particularly those in leadership, to take action.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

Absolutely, we need to weave these processes together and enter into different realms, to make something of it, something new. Now, apart from knowing you personally, part of what I've been hearing, as well, is your tenacity. It takes a particular kind of person to actually do that. One must have courage and strength and also be resilient because one can easily be dismantled and pathologised by greater forces because there is politics in everything. There needs to be that sense of authenticity about oneself too because how can we instil or capture others' authenticity or authentic selves and spaces and treat them with respect if we are not doing that?

So, I find your ability to link, your ability to manoeuvre and weave this understanding, these ideas and concepts with the needs of individuals, families, communities, of nations to bring into it as a whole to be paramount as a leader, particularly as a leader overseeing a whole continent, as in the case with you in Europe with such a diverse set of nations living within the space. I see as key areas the need to advocate on behalf of the profession and on behalf of the community. The reality is that family therapy, in certain countries, has not even been heard about and it is sad. Whenever we use systemic ideas, I feel that every time, in my experience, in the places that I have worked whether as a manager, or a front-line practitioner, in government, non-government, or private practice, I see the very moment we work with systemic ideas, it facilitates a more realistic lens. It strengthens the space; it broadens the current picture and the horizon. So, I wonder what you do you see, as a multi-national association leader, as the strengths in maintaining this and our sense of duty?

Umberta Telfener

I agree totally on our duty and the duty is to have systemic thinking in broader spaces. When you say that I am a strong theorist, I had Heinz Von Foerster as a mentor for more than 10 years. He was a “philosophist” and he was one of the originators of second-order cybernetics (von Foerster, 2003). We met in 1983, and so for 20 years until his death, we were friends, and I was his student. I would go to Pescadero to his family. I was a good friend of his wife, May, and his son, and we would go back and forth. They would come and visit. I would go and visit. I had a passion for theory and I have a passion for epistemology because of my background in philosophy. My first degree was in philosophy, only the second one was in psychology. So, I have a grounded solid platform on which to stand and that helps me. It gives me strength to work and fight for my ideas, it really does. I am a little bit immodest, but Mony was exactly the same, and he was a giant in therapy!

Deisy Amorin-Woods

Indeed, Mony had a magnetic presence and uniquely rich working style, so through the learning and immersion and through sharing with our mentors and colleagues capturing the theoretical guidance forces with the practical components we continue to “marry” the theory with the practice.

Umberta Telfener

Well, I do not know, I actually do not like the word “marry.” Marriage is a word that is too strong. I am afraid I never married. I lived with partners, but I never married.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

I respect that. I guess, stepping away from the use of that word, what I am trying to say is to ensure we engage in a continuing process of linking theory with practice. So, there is a constant, ongoing dance that you do in your role as EFTA president. You have informed us who influenced you, who you are influencing, how you have been influenced, and how you have been influencing others, what do you think is the direction of family therapy? In a lot of countries, there is not a great deal of in-depth understanding about what family therapy does or systemic thinking actually is, or the benefits of it. That's partly our own fault, because as teachers, mentors, and practitioners, we need to be informing that work.

Umberta Telfener

Okay, I see two things. One, I am afraid you are right, that we need to talk about marriage and not an affair in terms of theory and practice because it is really forever. It is not something that you can disguise. So, I must go back to your term and refer to it as a marriage. That is one thing.

The second thing is, how do we enter into domains that do not see us? I have the feeling that we should not just talk in terms of “family” because I think that family is a very narrow concept in these modern times. I would like to talk about “systemic” therapy. For example, the kind of therapy done with the father and two sons because the mother left or with siblings; siblings who live together because their parents died in the war and siblings who do not even know each other; adolescents who live in the same house because of all the effects of war. It happened in the terrible war between the Tutsi and Hutu. There were siblings and kids of approximately adolescent age who were living together and acting as a family. So, we have to broaden the concept of “family” and not think of mother, father, and kids first, and second, probably we have to talk about systemic therapy instead of family therapy. Because systemic therapy allows us to do 1000 possibilities, techniques, strategies, possibilities of seeing people and things like that.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

So, I guess what I am hearing you are saying is that language is of paramount importance. The way we describe concepts can limit its understanding and usage or it can broaden it. Some people may have a certain rigid idea about the concept, and it narrows the path of what it looks like in practice. What we need to consider is to broaden its views, which affords us a broadening of its applications. Thus, in referring to our profession or what we do as “systemic therapy” it expands its view in order to consider the many different permutations, supporting an “all embracing” approach and community at large. I believe that we need to continue in ongoing discussion in this area.

Umberta Telfener

Absolutely. I see a lot of individuals and I see them within the systemic frame … I guess, you do too.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

Yeah, absolutely.

Umberta Telfener

I do not define what I do as family therapy. I define therapy as systemic therapy because I think we are broader than just that. It is a trap that we have fallen into, calling our work family therapy, because we do much more, and we can do much more … we not only see traditional families. There are no more traditional families!

Deisy Amorin-Woods

Indeed, there are different compositions and different forms, and as you highlighted, we come across many diverse situations. So, this is a much more realistic way to present and do therapy.

Umberta Telfener

Absolutely.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

Now, given we are coming towards the end of our conversation, I am wondering about Umberta “the person.” I would like to know a little bit more about you as a person, how you entered from the personal space into the systemic world/space; and I guess how you came from your own “personal system” into influencing other systems professionally. This sounds like a riddle as I am saying it … I guess it is a constant exchange.

Umberta Telfener

It is a constant exchange. Well, one thing I can say is the need, I think, for therapists to be grounded and to be very comfortable with themselves, it is a journey. Now I am old enough that I succeeded in this, but it has been a long journey, a long, long search from the beginning, from when I was a child. Why are we in this world? What is the purpose? I love those questions and I think a lot of people who do this kind of work have these questions in mind and arrive at a kind of solution. My solution is that we are born to learn, to live, that we are born, and we live, in order to learn how to live. And that is a journey that takes a lifetime. I think that after I'm dead, the learning will end, but even after I am dead, I hope I will be a molecule in the universe, which will still be learning, and going on. I really hope so. So, you know, I think that as therapists we are lucky enough that our knowledge never ends. We can never say “I know.” We have to go on searching for this. We have to read articles, read books, and reflect on the learning that it brings, go on meeting people and learning from them, and indeed, have these conversations.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

I very much relate to that, we need to be conscious and intentional in getting ourselves out there, in meeting people, while also valuing spontaneous encounters. I truly believe that holding these conversations around the world with colleagues and systems thinkers and practitioners keeps me active. It provides me with such a deep and rich multi-dimensional level of ongoing learning, keeping me relevant and aware while keeping me connected to a bigger group, our international systemic group. It continues to feed my love and hunger for our profession. Making the sacrifice to travel three times abroad this year alone, to attend family therapy conferences, including now the international conference (organised by Andolfi and his APS School) created so many opportunities for so many encounters and exchanges. It also gave me the opportunity to be at the receiving end of your collegial generosity, inviting me to stay in your home, connecting, exchanging, and learning even more. I use the expression learning has no expiry date (Amorin-Woods, 2020).

Umberta Telfener

Our profession has no expiry date! You have no expiry date! You are the most curious person I've met in my life!

Deisy Amorin-Woods

So, in talking about curiosity … what do you see as the direction of EFTA, and family therapy, I guess the vision of systems thinking and how do you see that?

Umberta Telfener

We are in a very, very difficult moment because as I was telling you, we do not have any more firm, active, and strong mandate of deciding which institutes are “in” or “out.” We are working to have a directory of supervisors in the different countries. I am working with the general board very strongly to become an important “cultural” point of attraction, an attractor for culture, systemic culture; one of my colleagues Matthias Ochs and his committee are trying to start the discourse on qualitative healthy research. For us “systemics,” because it is our way of considering and respecting complexity that does not allow us to be structured, scientific researchers, reductionist receptors and we have to find other ways of doing research.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

Since we are working with “lived experiences” we need to respect and hold that with care to ensure we are sensitive, cognisant, and responsive, which highlights my keen interest in your work; having that diverse range of experience, which for me is part of true leadership for this role … to have academic experience as well as research experience.

Umberta Telfener

Of research experience, I lack a little bit …

Deisy Amorin-Woods

As well as supervision and clinical practice. How do you pass on that knowledge, as we continuously listen attentively and actively to the knowledge of others we need to ensure that we take care of those areas. We cannot dismiss the importance of the four key areas of our work; research, teaching, supervision, and practice, we need to be considerate and cognisant of those four areas and marry them!

Umberta Telfener

Here we go, using that word again!

Deisy Amorin-Woods

… ok … and falling in love with them …

Umberta Telfener

Yes, absolutely. And also, because I am afraid, we live in a very scientific and reductionist world. How is it possible to live in a world where there is war and migrants die? We are here sitting instead of doing something about the war and the genocide of migrants, we need to be at the centre of it, and we must take action steps.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

Absolutely. I agree. We cannot be silent we need to advocate, to be part of the conversation, the action, the “know how.” We need to spread awareness and knowledge, be able to listen to that knowledge and be responsive to it. Now, my final curiosity as this is likely to be viewed by teachers, clinicians, supervisors, and students. So, what would you like to share or impart? What would be the “Umberta Wisdom?” Something that you resonate with and would like to share, about the profession, your leadership role … maybe something to reflect on about this conversation we have had today?

Umberta Telfener

Well, I think that the essence of this conversation is curiosity, and we both have it a lot. I wish people were more curious in our field. The essence would probably also be the word respect. A wish I would like for the world would be to be filled with respect for everyone regardless of difference and I wish a world in which the psychological values are cared for, but within or attached to them, are the spiritual ones they are two domains. I think as therapists we need to put them together and sometimes also enter the spiritual domain to make the therapy more heavy, more weighty!

Deisy Amorin-Woods

So, more robust …

Umberta Telfener

Yes, that is it more robust!

Deisy Amorin-Woods

So, there is another word that is coming up for me here, another “c” word, in addition to curiosity, which is Creativity, so what I am getting from what you are saying is being creative in doing that, in weaving those two areas or domains …

Umberta Telfener

Yes, absolutely, absolutely having more weight, taking the world seriously, and being grateful, so probably the last word I would like to finish this interview with is Gratitude. Gratitude to you because you interviewed me, gratitude and respect to our patients for reaching out and holding hope, gratitude to our colleagues, and gratitude to this marvellous world.

Deisy Amorin-Woods

Thank you so much Umberta! It has been an absolute pleasure. My sincere gratitude to you for welcoming me into your charming and tranquil paradise, your home and space in Toscana. I am truly grateful.

Umberta Telfener

Thank you so very much.