Red Sistémica · Epistemology

Von Foerster and Maturana a capella

Humberto Maturana (neurobiologist) and Heinz von Foerster (cybernetician) came to Buenos Aires for the “1st Joint Conference of the SAFT (Sociedad Argentina de Terapia Familiar) and ASIBA (Asociación Sistémica de Buenos Aires)”. Perspectivas Sistémicas reports on this major scientific event in the creative version of Marcelo Ekman, who conveys the playful spirit of those conversations — which, by the admission of these illustrious scholars themselves, called to mind some encounter (real or imaginary) between the poets Pablo Neruda and Federico García Lorca.

Author Marcelo EkmanFirst published in Perspectivas Sistémicas, no. 2, August-September 1988Translation Complexe Systémique, with the permission of Red Sistémica

“Here, the other is not in error: they are in another reality.”

Humberto Maturana, Buenos Aires, May 1988

A Greek tale

Lysistratus, a wealthy merchant of Athens, had made the acquaintance of Hero, a renowned engineer, in Alexandria, the city he came from. It was the first century before Christ, and something important was about to happen, even if neither Lysistratus nor Hero of Alexandria, the main actors in the affair, suspected the scale that the ramifications of this event would take on.

Throughout Athens, and well beyond, the parties given at Lysistratus’s house were famous. The wine, produced especially for him in the vineyards of the valley of Aetolia, was drunk by the guests as though it were air, which began to worry Lysistratus (above all when he was sober). That, and asking for help from Hero of Alexandria — then passing through Athens to give a few talks at a famous Academy — were one and the same.

Hero’s answer was a device connecting a jug to a cup, with a mechanism such that the more wine there was in the cup, the less came out of the jug. With this mechanism, which today we would call negative feedback, Hero had probably become the first cybernetician in history.

And even if things did not happen exactly like that (though it is not absolutely impossible either), I do not believe Professor von Foerster would take amiss this particular version of his particular version of the origins of one of the conceptual pillars of cybernetics.

And what if it were all a lie?

Within the framework of the Conference on biology, cybernetics and communication, Heinz von Foerster and Humberto Maturana met an audience that filled hall A of the General San Martín Cultural Centre. Billions of years of biofeedback and of circular causality went by on 27 and 28 May in a venue in central Buenos Aires, thanks to the initiative of the Asociación Sistémica de Buenos Aires and the Sociedad Argentina de Terapia Familiar, chaired respectively by Sara Jutorán and by Dr Ana Giller.

Three orders of cybernetics followed one another, developed with intelligence and humour by the two masters. It was therefore not very difficult to imagine Bertrand Russell, in his pleasant house on the outskirts of London, racking his brains over a sentence uttered two thousand years earlier by the representative of another of the conceptual columns of cybernetics: Epimenides, that Cretan who, by declaring “I am a liar”, caused more than one headache in the most lucid heads of humanity.

For thousands of years, human beings lived in cybernetics of order zero, the order of implicit cybernetics, applied but not reflected upon.

In the mid-1940s, a group of scientists from the most diverse branches, with the support of the Macy foundation, observed that there are certain differences between what is inside and what is outside systems: the era of first-order cybernetics begins. First-order cybernetics begins when one starts to conceptualise the models with which we describe the systems we observe.

Reflections upon reflections have plunged us, for some twenty years now, into second-order cybernetics… and we will go no further, because according to Professor von Foerster there is no higher order: when one reflects upon reflection, the circle closes.

The only truth is reality

Yes, but which reality? In the process of observing and explaining, we may choose not to question the observer and to validate experiences by reference to objects independent of the observer; or else we may accept the question of the observer. Taking one or the other of these paths depends, according to Maturana, on emotion. On the second path, I answer for what I say: the other is not in error, they are in another reality.

On the first path, one is never responsible: it is not I who assert such and such a thing, it is objective reality. On the first path, that of objectivity, tolerance exists: “one does not accept the other, but one lets them be for a while”.

On the second path, that of (objectivity), tolerance does not exist, because the other has another reality: “here, one is no better, but one realises that one is bad”.

Objectivity without parentheses

Experiences are validated by reference to objects independent of the one who observes. No one has to answer for what they assert: it is objective reality that speaks. Here one finds tolerance, which lets the other be for a while without accepting them.

Objectivity in parentheses

The question of the observer is accepted, and taking this path is a matter of emotion. I answer for what I say; the other is not in error, they inhabit another reality. There is therefore no more tolerance to grant them.

The ethical depth of these questions led me, at a certain moment, to think that humanity would have spared itself a good many deaths simply by taking all this out of books and specialists’ meetings.

At six in the evening, on a cold Saturday in May 1988, two thousand years after the famous parties at Lysistratus’s house, a neurophilosopher and a magician (his former trade), named Humberto Maturana and Heinz von Foerster, added one more turn to the path of knowledge. The audience, grateful.

Who is Heinz von Foerster

Professor Heinz von Foerster, cybernetician, physicist, mathematician and philosopher, emeritus professor of biophysics, physiology and electrical engineering at the University of Illinois, where he created the renowned Biological Computer Laboratory.

Who is Humberto Maturana

Dr Humberto Maturana Romesín: cofounder of the Instituto de Formación Matríztica. Doctor of biology of Harvard University, National Prize for Sciences in 1994 and creator of the notion of autopoiesis. He is the author, among other works, of Neurophysiology of Cognition, Biology of Language, Ontología del conversar, De la biología a la psicología, Objetividad: un argumento para obligar and Del ser al hacer. He is currently working with Ximena Dávila on the development of the dynamic of the biological and cultural Matrix of human existence. Starting from his study of perception, Professor Maturana created the field of the ontological understanding of the phenomenon of knowing as a biological phenomenon, which we call the biology of cognition, and he has explored the origins of the human through the biology of love. Today he pursues his work from the understanding of the operational dynamic that interweaves the biology of cognition and the biology of love, which emerged in collaboration with Ximena Dávila Yáñez as an operational reflective domain they call the biological and cultural Matrix of human existence.

This article is an English translation of “Von Foerster y Maturana a capella”, published by Red Sistémica (first published in Perspectivas Sistémicas, n° 2, août-septembre 1988). Translated and republished with the journal’s permission.

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How to cite this article

Ekman, M. (2022). Von Foerster and Maturana a capella (Complexe Systémique, Trans.). Complexe Systémique. https://app.complexe-systemique.com/en_GB/articles/von-foerster-and-maturana-a-capella (Original work published in 1988 in Perspectivas Sistémicas, n° 2, août-septembre 1988; republished in 2022 by Red Sistémica, https://redsistemica.ar/2022/06/20/von-foerster-y-maturana-a-capella/)

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